Hello, I’m Shelley Tremain and I’d like to welcome you to the thirty-ninth installment of Dialogues on Disability, the series of interviews that I’m conducting with disabled philosophers and post here on the third Wednesday of each month. The series is designed to provide a public venue for discussion with disabled philosophers about a range of topics, including their philosophical work on disability; the place of philosophy of disability vis-à-vis the discipline and profession; their experiences of institutional discrimination and personal prejudice in philosophy, in particular, and in academia, more generally; resistance to ableism, racism, sexism, and other apparatuses of power; accessibility; and anti-oppressive pedagogy.
I acknowledge that the land on which I sit to conduct these interviews is the traditional territory of the Haudensaunee and Anishnaabeg, covered by the Upper Canada Treaties and directly adjacent to Haldiman Treaty territory. I offer these interviews with respect and in the spirit of reconciliation.
My guest today is Catherine Clune-Taylor. Catherine (Cato) is a postdoctoral research associate in the Program in Gender and Sexuality Studies at Princeton University, who holds a Ph.D. in Philosophy from the University of Alberta and a B.A. of Medical Science in Immunology and Microbiology from Western University. Catherine’s doctoral project was a critical analysis of the science, ethics, and biopolitics underwriting medical efforts that aim to secure a cisgender future for a minor, the medical management of intersex conditions in children, and the treatment with so-called conversion therapies of trans kids. Cato is currently the Vice-President of CSWIP.
Welcome to Dialogues on Disability, Catherine! You have various areas of expertise because you have a varied educational background. You began your academic career in the medical sciences. What motivated you to continue your education in philosophy? And how have your backgrounds in both medical science and philosophy complemented and complicated each other?
Hi Shelley! Thank you so much for inviting me. It’s an honour to be included in this important series. As you know, I’ve been a fan of your work for quite some time.
I do have a pretty varied and, in some ways, atypical background for a philosopher. I was born in Toronto, Canada, to a white Canadian mother of Irish Catholic and French-Canadian descent and a Bahamian immigrant father. I aspired to become a doctor from a pretty young age—maybe four or five—it’s what I remember always wanting to do. My parents really supported and positively reinforced that plan.
For the child of an immigrant from a working-class/lower-middle class family, that was a very legible pathway towards class mobility. I took all the maths and sciences in high school and got a full-time summer job while I was still in high school doing administrative work in a busy family medical practice in Toronto. I was fifteen with my eye towards my eventual medical school applications, filing test results, making referrals, booking appointments, triaging patients over the phone. Things like that. I even went back to Toronto to work at the practice for the first couple of summers that I was an undergrad at Western.
I started my first undergraduate degree at Western, with the plan of pursuing my M.D. as soon as I was done or doing a M.Sc. in microbiology before going on to medical school. I start to stumble—and I mean, really stumble—off this path when I took Philosophy of Gender and Sexuality with Helen Fielding as an elective during the second year of my B.M.Sc. I took the course because it fit into my lab schedule and satisfied my essay requirement for that term. It also sounded personally interesting. I was already out as queer, active in LGBTQ organizing on campus, and identified as a feminist, albeit a rather naïve one. The very first topic that we looked at in the course was the medical management of intersex conditions, reading work by Anne Fausto-Sterling, Suzanne Kessler, Robert Crouch, and Michel Foucault. The reading had a huge impact on me.
Like the rest of my classmates, I was horrified by the heteronormativity of the treatment model; by the lack of evidence supporting it; by the blatantly unethical performance of medically unnecessary genital-normalizing surgeries on those unable to consent for the sake of “society;” by the fiction of naturally dimorphic sex; and by the legacy of physicians withholding information from and outright lying to patients and their surrogates, all of which the authors that we read detailed. I was also very taken by Foucault’s account of biopower as a form of knowledge/power over life itself, particularly in the medical context. As someone actively working to become a doctor, I just couldn’t shake the readings or their implications. It disrupted a lot of what I thought I understood about medicine: about its role in society, about the relationship between biomedical science and medical practice, and about the “objectivity” of science itself.
So, I continued to research intersex conditions and their management on my own after the class moved on, reading in both the sciences and the humanities, doing work on the topic where I could manage to work it in. For example, I did the major research project for my Biochemistry of Genetic Diseases class on the most common intersex condition, Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia.
I also began to take more philosophy courses—as many as I could, really. When I was advised that the conditions of my B.M.Sc. program wouldn't allow me to double major, I took a heavy course load, such that by the time I finished my degree in Microbiology and Immunology, I had enough philosophy credits to complete my B.A. in the area in only one more year, which I did. The more engaged with philosophy that I became, the more I researched intersex conditions and their management.
The more Foucault that I read, the more alienated that I became from my dream of going to medical school. I had begun to reinterpret and reframe some of my past experiences with medicine in terms of my own medicalization as a patient and the medicalization of my parents, both of whom were disabled. Most importantly, I had begun to reflect on the patients with intersex conditions who had come through the practice in which I worked and the way in which they and their families had been managed.
Many of my favourite feminist philosophy professors at Western encouraged me to consider graduate school in philosophy so that I might continue to pursue my research and concerns about intersex conditions. In all honesty, I took their advice and enrolled in the M.A. program in philosophy at Western not because I was sold in any way on the idea of professional philosophy as a career, nor because I felt like I had found my “true calling.” Doing the M.A. simply seemed like a productive way to spend a year while I figured out what to do “for real”.
Completing my M.A., however, only left me feeling further adrift; the courses that I took and the research that I did only served to put me even further off a future in medicine. Moreover, as the child of working-class parents, neither of whom had advanced beyond secondary school and one of whom had never completed elementary school, it wasn’t anywhere on my radar to be an academic, let alone a philosopher.
At twenty-five, with three degrees and unsure of what to do next, I decided to take a year off and was lucky enough to be offered two year-long courses to teach at Western—which I enjoyed far more than I expected. During this time, Tracy Isaacs, Carolyn McLeod, Helen Fielding, and in particular Samantha Brennan, encouraged me to apply to do a Ph.D. at the University of Alberta where I could work on intersex with Cressida Heyes—who, at the time, was the Canada Research Chair in Philosophy of Gender and Sexuality.
I had absolutely no idea at the time how lucky I was to be guided towards working with Cressida. I could go on at length about the ways that she supported and guided me, intellectually and personally, during my Ph.D, which was, admittedly, very difficult. I had very little funding and had to work a good deal to keep myself afloat during my doctorate. I was also the first Black woman to go through the Ph.D. program in philosophy at Alberta, which was about as homogeneously white, male, and hostile to feminists as a philosophy department can be. There were multiple times when I almost dropped out. I would have dropped out if I hadn’t had Cressida’s support. I am a far better philosopher than I ever imagined that I could be because of Cressida and her guidance.
In October 2015, I defended my dissertation, for which Judith Butler was the external examiner, was awarded my degree in June 2016, and began my three-year position as a postdoctoral research associate in the Program in Gender and Sexuality Studies on July 1, 2016.
[Description of coloured photo below: Catherine, a Black woman with very short hair, is sitting in a car, looking slightly sideways into the camera, and faintly smiling. She is wearing fabulous glasses with cat’s-eyes shaped frames. Light is pouring in from a window behind her.]
I think of my backgrounds as deeply complementary. Indeed, I could not do the kind of thoroughly interdisciplinary, critical research that I do without the kinds of formal training that I’ve had. There are certain arguments and conclusions that I make in my research that I could not have come to without the experiences that I’ve had working in medicine, the work I did in different research labs, or the training that I’ve received in both science and philosophy.
That said, I think that we do not acknowledge the additional training and workload that rigorous interdisciplinary scholars often must take on—in those rare academic contexts where interdisciplinarity is actively encouraged beyond mere lip service. I do think that there are ways in which my backgrounds and the kind of research that I do puts me in a somewhat complicated position disciplinarily.
Philosophy is a discipline that, to its detriment, loves to police its boundaries. The deeply interdisciplinary nature of my work detracts from my legibility as a philosopher. I also increasingly find that various aspects of my background lead others to make certain assumptions about my work or the positions that I must take. For example, I’ve encountered the assumptions, more than once, that because I am influenced by Foucault in my approach, or deny the “objectivity” of science, that I must be anti-science and anti-medicine, or somehow don’t understand science or am unfamiliar with its practices—none of which assumptions is true.
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